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120916-welp-thought-id-like-it-page-3
Page 1, Page 2, Page 3, Page 4, Page 5, Page 6 Content Dude, the OP has posted several times in this thread and I have read them all. He said the problem was that normal mode STL was too hard, too frustrating, and it was nothing short of miraculous if a queue popped at all for it, and that he "wasn't allowed" to do the dungeon at level 30. Since he is in fact allowed to enter the dungeon even as a level 30 character, I would guess that he means that even at level 30 he still couldn't complete it, although it's not clear and I wouldn't want to have to bet money on being right. Of course, we probably won't ever know. Nobody asked him to clarify. Of the three people responding to him that dungeons are supposed to be hard, only Sly even noticed that he said something about not being allowed to do the dungeon before moving on to "perhaps you should just stick to adventures". He said that hardcore guilds had way too much influence over the content relative to casuals, and when people jumped all over him for even implying that casuals couldn't be hardcore, he tried to backtrack and change that to "hardcore 40-player guilds" relative to "solos". And now you're jumping all over him for the use of the number 40 because zomg they're removing 40 man raids how dare he not know that. Strangely, you're complaining about it even though the guilds that he refers to that play the 40-man raids will still exist when the 40-man raids themselves are gone. Even more strangely, you're offended by the idea that he should think these guilds have too much influence even though earlier this very week you were insisting that they're the ones who asked for the 40 man raids to be removed--IIRC, because they didn't want to have to have 2 sets of raid gear--and then the 40-man raids were removed. And then you're offended at the idea that anyone should claim they have a lot of influence over the game. :lol: And then he noted, correctly, that the game is a ghost town and that perhaps a reason why there's so much enthusiastic support for things being so hard during the leveling process is that everyone who didn't like that already left and can't post here anymore. And he's got a fair point there, doesn't he. And by the way, although I share an interest in challenging content, I also agree with his point that the leveling part of the game is the training. I'm glad you guys had so much fun with the level 20 dungeon during the time it takes for the hardcore to blast their way up to 50--what's it down to these days, sarcasm20 minutes? 25?/sarcasm, but here's the thing. When you say that content is a complete ball of suck in pugs and isn't even intended to BE puggable, apparently someone forgot to tell the developers that because there's a whole section of the group finder for doing exactly that. So you're pissing at him for doing it in a way that according to you is against the content design, but at the same time is the obvious method that's going to be chosen by everyone who hasn't found a guild by level 20. Is there any place the game tells them that what they're trying to do is simply not what they're supposed to do? I must've missed it. By the way, it's pretty amazing to hear you talk about how little hardcore raiders care about level 20 dungeons in the exact same thread where you climbed down this guy's throat for having the gall to suggest that hardcore raiders have had too much influence over level 20 dungeons because you loved that dungeon and how dare he. You do care. Obviously. Which brings us to rewards, and both you and Sly unloaded on me for even bringing it up, so I'd like to explain my thinking. You're right that he didn't mention them. What he did say was that he found it frustratingly hard and getting a queue to pop at all was nothing short of a miracle. In other words, people aren't running this content much and at least some of those who do find it to be really unentertaining. Right or wrong, the way that MMORPGs get people to take the time to do things that they're finding frustrating is by rewarding them enough to make the effort worthwhile. That's the whole concept underlying difficulty/reward, right? That increased difficulty is incentivized by increased reward? For the obvious reason that people are much more accepting of challenge and find it much less frustrating if they're getting rewarded along the way enough to make pushing harder seem worthwhile. If you got into GA and your raid group took down Genetic Monstrosity and all that dropped was a bunch of Necklaces for half of the group, somehow I doubt everyone would show up for the next miniboss. How far into STL did the OP get? Where did he get held up? He didn't say, and nobody else seemed to care, and then he was gone. So have I recaptured enough context to have some street cred? Or no? As for that stream of conciousness you followed up with, I think all that really needs saying in response to that is this: If you think collecting dyes is such a swell form of endgame progression, YOU go collect dyes for your endgame. But if you're raiding and collecting the best gear in the game while you do it, you've got a hell of a lot of nerve telling ME to be fine with collecting dyes. | |} ---- Go collect dyes, you should be fine with it. | |} ---- It's true :( I run vet content for purple pouches, I need me some more dyes! | |} ---- I like dyes. I wish I had more of them tbh. | |} ---- My intent had been to use the quotes to note the beginning and end of a paraphrasing of the concept, not to indicate your exact wording. I certainly understand why you feel you've been misquoted, however, and I apologize for the ambiguity. I have edited the post to remove the offending quote marks and replace them with the tags paraphrase/paraphrase for clarity. As for the rest, I agree with Sly that this is really a topic that deserves its own thread. | |} ---- And thanks to both of you for your respectful and constructive contributions to the thread. | |} ---- Any time Yasfan :) | |} ---- Fair enough. I can understand that. Also agreed. | |} ---- I'm so sorry this game is not for you. I remember my first experience in Stormtalon's Lair, and I compared it to the First Turns of Coil in FFXIV... Endgame Raid content. Yes it is hard. This was at launch when there were plenty of things to do and trying dungeons was just one of them. The difficulty was a promise of things to come in my eyes. I found it thrilling. Yes, this game was hard and I liked it that way. The truth is, Normal STL and Vet STL have very little difference. IF you can learn Normal STL you don't have far to go to learn Veteran. But people respond to challenge in different ways. No matter what someone's going to be turned off. Either the fights are too hard, or they are two easy. Referring back to FFXIV, low level dungeons are so easy that you don't even have to have a tank. Even mid level dungeons, people in endgame gear just pull everything. Even the healer's DPS more than they heal. This is unacceptable to me. It's unenjoyable. I would hate to see Wildstar go down that route. That said. I'm still sorry to see you go. | |} ---- That would be incorrect.. I'm a casual player, and enjoy the game. | |} ---- I'm not *offended* by the idea- it just doesn't fit the facts. Level 20 dungeons aren't how they are to appease 40 man guilds, and I don't see why anyone would think that unless that individual is conflating "skilled" with "40 man raider", which we all know isn't true. It doesn't take an organized guild group who dedicates 40 hours a week to run a level 20 dungeon successfully. No, he doesn't. This is pure conjecture. In fact, I seriously doubt that the level of difficulty of dungeons has much to do with the population. Unless you just mean the game in general is too difficult for leveling, in which it comes back to the game not being for him. Because leveling is not difficult in this game. I watched my wife, who is not a gamer, plow ahead doing quests as high as she could (which ended up with her running out of quests before cap) because it was too boring to do quests at level. Why? I was able to take my time leveling because there was cool fun stuff to do while leveling. Taking that away means it's back to "the game doesn't start until you hit 50" which I *hate*. I took a month on my fist toon to level, and even longer on my alt, and being able to run interesting dungeons on the way up had a lot to do with that. I remember the chore of leveling in other games just to get to something fun, but WS didn't do that to us. I saw it as a major benefit to the game. This just isn't true. I've pugged STL 20 more times than I can count, as I've said with most of the runs being successful and under an hour. I agree that leveling content should be puggable, and it is.And I've agreed that long queue times are a problem and can turn people off from the game. I just don't believe that nerfing the content is the way to fix that. *I'm* not a hardcore raider. The point is, that level 20 dungeons have little or nothing to do with raiding. They are a different part of the game. It does not take being a hardcore raider to enjoy the dungeons, and I'll bet the most hardcore players skipped dungeons while leveling (because their goal is generally to get to endgame the fastest way possible). Not sure I *unloaded* on you, but I certainly thought bringing up gear as the reason people were running dungeons was faulty logic. You said that the reason those who ran dungeons were most likely to stick with the game was because they were forced to in order to get gear. I think very few people are running level 20 STL because it has awesome gear in it, and certainly no one is feeling forced to run STL 20 to get the best gear in the game. All it takes is waiting a few levels and you'll replace all that gear anyway. | |} ---- ---- I'm glad you are sticking around, especially if you've found people to play with- it really can be a great game :) So here's the thing- you really don't need to voice coms or pre-made group to do the leveling dungeons. What you *do* need is understanding about things like interrupts and the mechanics of the boss fights. If you have one random player in your group who has experience and is willing to share it, you should have no problem getting through the dungeon. If you are Exile in NA, I would be willing to queue up with you on my tank and give you a clean run through STL 20 explaining all the fights. And you have tons of sympathy from me over how long the queues take to pop. It should not be this way and I hope Carbine's effort to fix this will be successful. BTW, what DID you mean about not being able to do the level 20 dungeon at 30? | |} ---- They are fairly brutal if you pug them, esp if you're trying to tank/heal because there's very little by way of support gear and people are usually brand new to the game at that point. It would be cool if there were lvl 20,30,40 (full sets, most of the rep gear is straight DPS, and very patchy) armor sets you could buy for a small amount of gold. I also am down to run you through STL, I can tank/heal/dps. Just account add AnnaSmarts if you're exile NA. | |} ---- ---- Well, in his defense, take the first boss of STL. If you are used to other MMOs where a first boss is basically "don't pull agro from the tank and shoot at him", Bladwind is something of a wake up call. Instead you get a boss where: -There are 3 phases -You have to dodge fast, red telegraphs -You have to change focus to adds in phase 2 because boss becomes immune -You have to drag telegraphs onto the adds while avoiding sparks flying around the room -You have to deal with a disarm -You have to find small safe zones in the middle of a room wide AoE Now if someone explains all this to you, or better yet coordinates interrupts so you can avoid some of these mechanics, it's not to difficult to execute even for a fresh, new player. But if you are just figuring it out as you go with no direction, this might as well be a raid boss. Now it's a great, FUN fight and I don't think it should be changed- but I completely understand why people who don't have that knowledge find it to be a horrible experience. I found that if I gave a quick summation of what to do before the fight, even completely new players had no problem with the execution. | |} ---- It's braindead easy- now lol. Did you ever do them early on in the game when nobody knew anything? You can dismiss literally anything with "well durr don't get hit and do mechanics", but look at it through the eyes of someone possibly never having had played an MMO before, a few days into the game, with absolutely trash gear. With 4 other people in the same spot. They are absolutely hard given the circumstances. Harder than vet content I daresay as well. Difficulty is 100% relative to experience and gear, with a smattering of personal skill. | |} ---- But why must people one shot bosses? What happen to learning the encounter by wiping and re thinking the strategy? Why must everything you do alone or in a small group in MMOs be easy. Why is wiping = horrible experience? This is my main question. | |} ---- I wiped once in STL while doing my attunement a week after headstart, on the last boss. Maybe I'm just this super geek that knows how to play games. I dont know. Now SSM was another story. I must have tried that dungeon 5-6 times before I got my silver (gold is easy now because I kept practicing it). I liked the game so I kept playing it and improved so I could eventually move on to the next difficulty level, like any MMO should do. You start at very easy, move on to medium, then hard and then you eventually get to the real endgame. And I dont understand people problems with wildstar content being too hard. The problem today is that people dont want to improve. They want to get to level 50 and then raid raid raid to get shineys (or do dailies to get the same gear, wtf?). They have no intention of improving and learning the ins and out of a game. | |} ---- OP wasn't trying to raid. With this statement, you are supporting his point that these dungeons are catering to hardcore raiders (which I don't think is true). | |} ---- Two things, one that name is horrible. Second, surely you HAVE to get better and learn the ins and outs to raid? | |} ---- Because when you are queueing up to pug an entry level dungeon, normal people don't expect to take 3 hours to run it, which is what will happen if you have to figure out each encounter as you go. Don't get me wrong- this is what I did the first time I ran STL back when it was a new release, and it was glorious. We had so much fun! But it was different then, and it was a different crowd. When the game is new people expect to have to figure out the fight mechanics. But now the info is out there- people can look it up or just learn from other players, and these dungeons don't have to take hours to run. They can be clean and fairly easy, as long as people know what they are supposed to be doing. | |} ---- We're talking about level 20 dungeons while leveling. Not a solid level 50 team blasting through vets. I've seen people that were absolutely terrible get all their (silver) dungeons 1 shot in a few hours (my pain as the primary attunement officer back in the day was real). And people that were excellent wipe more than a few times thanks to others screwing up. Anyways, WS is certainly easy for many. I know I loved doing pug leveling dungeons while leveling all my toons, it's so much fun. But for many many more it was too much. Totally independent of you personally never finding a challenge. I've taught many people basic mechanics and dungeons in and outs, getting someone that wasn't actively trying to improve was extremely rare. People being unwilling to teach however... that's standard fare. | |} ---- ---- Glad to hear that you decided to give it another try. :) Having a guild to help out and offer advice does help a lot, and the dungeons and adventures are both quite skippable as long as you still have other ways of progression--which will continue on for quite some time if you're still leveling. Enjoy the ride, don't blast up to 50, and just FYI, Veteran Shiphands are coming with Drop 4 which should be repeatable albeit entry-level endgame content for solo players. | |} ----